Nanking victim wins lawsuit

[Prophet of the Way]

Eclipsed by the clash of the media titans NHK and Asahi Shimbun, a defamation
case brought to Japanese court saw conclusion on January 20th. Nanking victim
Li Xiu Ying won a lawsuit against a history book author that called her stories
fabricated.

Nanjing Massacre Survivor Wins Lawsuit
China Internet Information Center
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2005/Jan/118585.htm
Supreme Court ruling.

Times Online
May 11, 2002
Survivor wins payout over Nanjing libel
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-292826,00.html
Tokyo District Court ruling. Note that this is news in England.

Douso, The Prophet of the Way

[john_ccy]

Good, this shows that legal system works well in Japan.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by john_ccy
Good, this shows that legal system works well in Japan.

Nothing of the sort. It shows that it has worked once. One swallow
doesn't make a spring, and one can't draw general conclusions from
one result.

[Michael Cash]

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:15:02 +0000 (UTC), "john_ccy"

Post by john_ccy
Good, this shows that legal system works well in Japan.

Extrapolation from a single example is a really bad idea.




Michael Cash
Kiryu

[john_ccy]

Actually, this is one of a series of similar news stories that people
regularly put up on soc.culture.japan regarding court decisions that
relate to World War II issues. Although this is just one data point
regarding this specific decision, I'm commenting on the whole body of
decisions based on past news stories posted here, in the past, that
show Japan's legal system addressing issues such as the Nanjing
Massacre or Comfort Women.

Although right-wingers sometimes post inflamatory messages here, I
think this series of new stories, to me at least, show that the courts
in Japan don't support the extreme right-wing views that are often
expressed on this board.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by john_ccy
Actually, this is one of a series of similar news stories that people
regularly put up on soc.culture.japan regarding court decisions that
relate to World War II issues. Although this is just one data point
regarding this specific decision, I'm commenting on the whole body of
decisions based on past news stories posted here, in the past, that
show Japan's legal system addressing issues such as the Nanjing
Massacre or Comfort Women.

An interesting interpretation. I think it really shows Japan's legal system
avoiding issues such as the Nanjing Massacre or Comfort Women as much as
it can.

A few points I'd make are:

(a) on the whole the Japanese legal system does not have the role of
forcing the Japanese govt. to do such things as live up to treaties, meet
obligations, etc. etc. The role of the courts in administration is seen as
limited largely to making sure legislation is constitutional. Issues
such as the Nanjing Massacre and the Comfort Women don't fit into
this, so efforts to bring them before the courts have been largely
unsuccessful. It's only when there has been an issue such as the
alleged defamation in a textbook that the courts have accepted a role.

(b) I don't really object to this. If it's the way the system works, so
be it. I think Japanese society as a whole would be better off if there
were more judicial scrutiny of government action or inaction, but I
don't think it appropriate for the courts just to take such a thing on
themselves. It needs to be constitutionally based. (Having a properly
independent judiciary would help.)

(c) the line taken by successive Japanese governments has been that the
signing of the various peace treaties in the early 1950s marked the end
of responsibility for wartime actions. The closest that position came to
unravelling was Murayama's apology in 1995, but it was a personal statement
from him (as a JSP Prime Minister leading a mostly conservative
coalition), and did not get wide political support. On the whole I think
this position is arrogant and insensitive.

Post by john_ccy
Although right-wingers sometimes post inflamatory messages here, I
think this series of new stories, to me at least, show that the courts
in Japan don't support the extreme right-wing views that are often
expressed on this board.
From my reading of postings to s.c.j.m (I don't bother with the

unmoderated one) I couldn't tell whether the critical views were
left-wing or right-wing. I get the impression that criticism of Japan's
actions in the 1930s and 1940s is not a left/right political matter.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by j***@hotmail.com
of responsibility for wartime actions. The closest that position came to
unravelling was Murayama's apology in 1995, but it was a personal statement
from him (as a JSP Prime Minister leading a mostly conservative
coalition), and did not get wide political support.

It didn't get wide support among politicians, but it was widely
supported by the public. I read articles in both Nihon Keizai and Asahi
that put public support for the statements at over 60%.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
On the whole I think this position is arrogant and insensitive.

Why?

Mike

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by j***@hotmail.com
of responsibility for wartime actions. The closest that position came to
unravelling was Murayama's apology in 1995, but it was a personal statement
from him (as a JSP Prime Minister leading a mostly conservative
coalition), and did not get wide political support.

It didn't get wide support among politicians, but it was widely
supported by the public. I read articles in both Nihon Keizai and Asahi
that put public support for the statements at over 60%.

Indeed. And that would probably still be the case.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by j***@hotmail.com
On the whole I think this position is arrogant and insensitive.

Why?

Because I think it's impossible to draw a line in the sand and say,
in effect, everything before 195x has nothing to do with us.

A lot of people in a lot of countries suffered because of Japan's
imperialist activities, and successive Japanese governments have given
the strong impression they simply don't care about this. Combine
that with things like textbook revisionism, official visits to
the Yasukuni, etc. and you have the impression that perhaps nothing
really has changed in attitudes.

I realise there is a risk that once you get into apologies and
compensation, the claims and demands could go on forever, but
just a word or two of real apology would go a long way.

A year or so back Koizumi was in Australia and made a speech which
skirted around this issue. The interesting thing was that people who
were at the speech (and who spoke Japanese) said that what he said,
combined with his body language, was really quite apologetic. It was
a marked contrast with the official MOFA translation which stuck to
the party line.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by j***@hotmail.com
On the whole I think this position is arrogant and insensitive.

Why?

Because I think it's impossible to draw a line in the sand and say,
in effect, everything before 195x has nothing to do with us.

That's a fairly standard approach to these things, though. As such,
"arrogant" seems an inappropriate word.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
A lot of people in a lot of countries suffered because of Japan's
imperialist activities, and successive Japanese governments have given
the strong impression they simply don't care about this. Combine

I would agree that this is suboptimal, however I see nothing out of the
ordinary in it.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
that with things like textbook revisionism, official visits to
the Yasukuni, etc.

This is far more dangerous, IMO, and more serious. Rewriting history is
seldom done for innocuous reasons, especially WRT wars.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
and you have the impression that perhaps nothing
really has changed in attitudes.

I think they have; among the things that made Imperial expansion (and
abuses) possible was a lack of education and exposure to the outside
world for a large percentage of people. This is unlikely to be a problem
today.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
I realise there is a risk that once you get into apologies and
compensation, the claims and demands could go on forever, but
just a word or two of real apology would go a long way.

I agree that they should. However, both the ROK and China officially
consider the matter closed.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
A year or so back Koizumi was in Australia and made a speech which
skirted around this issue. The interesting thing was that people who
were at the speech (and who spoke Japanese) said that what he said,
combined with his body language, was really quite apologetic. It was
a marked contrast with the official MOFA translation which stuck to
the party line.

Omitted in your previous statement about apologies was reference to
Hosokawa's statements. He was quite emphatic about this as well. (Ironic,
considering his grandfather.) Still, when most power is held by
politicians beholden to rural interests it's not surprising that less
seemly aspects of history are glossed over.

Mike

[Musashi]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by john_ccy
Actually, this is one of a series of similar news stories that people
regularly put up on soc.culture.japan regarding court decisions that
relate to World War II issues. Although this is just one data point
regarding this specific decision, I'm commenting on the whole body of
decisions based on past news stories posted here, in the past, that
show Japan's legal system addressing issues such as the Nanjing
Massacre or Comfort Women.

An interesting interpretation. I think it really shows Japan's legal system
avoiding issues such as the Nanjing Massacre or Comfort Women as much as
it can.
(a) on the whole the Japanese legal system does not have the role of
forcing the Japanese govt. to do such things as live up to treaties,

meet=20

Post by j***@hotmail.com
obligations, etc. etc. The role of the courts in administration is seen as
limited largely to making sure legislation is constitutional. Issues
such as the Nanjing Massacre and the Comfort Women don't fit into
this, so efforts to bring them before the courts have been largely
unsuccessful. It's only when there has been an issue such as the
alleged defamation in a textbook that the courts have accepted a role.
=20
(b) I don't really object to this. If it's the way the system works, so
be it. I think Japanese society as a whole would be better off if there
were more judicial scrutiny of government action or inaction, but I
don't think it appropriate for the courts just to take such a thing on
themselves. It needs to be constitutionally based. (Having a properly
independent judiciary would help.)
=20
(c) the line taken by successive Japanese governments has been that the
signing of the various peace treaties in the early 1950s marked the end
of responsibility for wartime actions. The closest that position came to
unravelling was Murayama's apology in 1995, but it was a personal statement
from him (as a JSP Prime Minister leading a mostly conservative
coalition), and did not get wide political support. On the whole I think
this position is arrogant and insensitive.
=20

http://www.chinaembassy.se/eng/xwdt/t101418.htm

[Musashi]

Post by john_ccy
Actually, this is one of a series of similar news stories that people
regularly put up on soc.culture.japan regarding court decisions that
relate to World War II issues. Although this is just one data point
regarding this specific decision, I'm commenting on the whole body of
decisions based on past news stories posted here, in the past, that
show Japan's legal system addressing issues such as the Nanjing
Massacre or Comfort Women.
Although right-wingers sometimes post inflamatory messages here, I
think this series of new stories, to me at least, show that the courts
in Japan don't support the extreme right-wing views that are often
expressed on this board.

I happen to agree with you John. Bear in mind that there is only one
real Japanese person here who posts right wing stuff. The others are
imposters who couldn't answer me in Japanese. Court decisions of this
nature prove that contrary to what many anti-Japanese posters believe and
repeat, the judicial system in Japan is nor entirely under the control
of Right Wingers. Similarly, I may add, that while some Chinese posters
openly post here about "killing Japanese", recently a Chinese court
convicted a Chinese student who had murdered a fafmily of four in Japan,
showing again that the judicial system is not under the control of the
nationalistic anti-Japanese fervor that we we see on usenet.

M

[john_ccy]

Very good points, Jim. I don't personally have an intimate knowledge
of the Japanese court's relationship with the rest of the government
and how they affect policy, etc. so I was viewing it from the US model
(the only reference point that I have), from which these court
decisions sounded promising.

I think on one hand, it's a shame that the government of Japan has
avoided direct apologies to countries like China and South Korea, but
then again on another, I don't see a parallel of say, France
continuously asking German politicians to make an apology each time a
state visit occurs, so sometimes I wonder if it's necessary for Japan's
neighbors to insist on the same thing, 60 years after WWII has come and
gone.

I'm not Japanese, but from studying and understanding East Asian
culture, even on a personal level, it seems very difficult for people
to directly confront each other and either ask for or give an apology
for any unfortunate events that may have happened in the past, so I
wonder if there's a reasonable cultural component to Japan's reticence.
(I personally don't know.) I do remember when the Emperor and Empress
visited China a few years back, they did make an indirect apology that
expressed their "concern" if not full "regret" for the events of WWII.
I just remember there were a lot of news articles about the
negotiations from both sides beforehand of the specific wording of
their comments and intense analysis afterwards regarding the specific
words chosen.

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by john_ccy
Very good points, Jim. I don't personally have an intimate knowledge
of the Japanese court's relationship with the rest of the government
and how they affect policy, etc. so I was viewing it from the US model
(the only reference point that I have), from which these court
decisions sounded promising.

It's a common mistake to assume the Japanese legal system, particularly
on constitutional and administrative matters, is the same as in the US.

[john_ccy]

BTW, I wanted to say that I am SO happy to find the moderated version
of soc.culture.japan. I'm relatively new to these news groups and was
just really disappointed with the types of postings on the unmoderated
version. It seems like they only exist as a forum for people to make
the most racist, illogical, and outrageous remarks. I've found the
moderated versions for China and Taiwan, but not for Korea yet. Any
idea if one exists and what the group might be called? Thx. John.

[john_ccy]

I think it's part of human nature to try and downplay the unsavory
aspects of the past, so I'm not sure if the actions of Japanese
politicians are that unique or different from the politicians of any
other countries. Take the US for example. In my 32 years of
existence, I'm not sure if I ever heard any politican apologizing for
slavery, segregation, internment of Japanese-Americans, or the entire
unfortunate history with Native-Americans. Some of these events, such
as segregation or the internment camps are just within one lifetime,
with many of the victims still alive. True, the US did eventually
offer compensation to the Japanese-Americans in the 1980's, but the
amount offered was trivial. The government, however, never actually
made good on its promise to former slaves of "40 acres and a mule" that
they had promised them during the Civil War and has never brought up
the subject of compensation for those who suffered under segregation.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by john_ccy
I think it's part of human nature to try and downplay the unsavory
aspects of the past, so I'm not sure if the actions of Japanese
politicians are that unique or different from the politicians of any
other countries.

They are a bit more extreme.

Post by john_ccy
Take the US for example. In my 32 years of
existence, I'm not sure if I ever heard any politican apologizing for
slavery, segregation, internment of Japanese-Americans, or the entire
unfortunate history with Native-Americans. Some of these events, such

Actually, I believe in 1972 or so, the US government apologized for
slavery. They also apologized for the internment.

However, apologies are seldom given much publicity either, after the
fact. They would be a reminder of the unfortunate episode which prompted
them.

This is likely what happens with even the watered-down Japanese gov't
apologies.

Post by john_ccy
with many of the victims still alive. True, the US did eventually
offer compensation to the Japanese-Americans in the 1980's, but the
amount offered was trivial.

In many cases, such as the comfort women, symbolic compensation is what
is sought.

Post by john_ccy
The government, however, never actually
made good on its promise to former slaves of "40 acres and a mule" that
they had promised them during the Civil War and has never brought up

I don't recall that that was an actual promise.

Mike

[Grendel]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by john_ccy
Take the US for example. In my 32 years of
existence, I'm not sure if I ever heard any politican apologizing for
slavery, segregation, internment of Japanese-Americans, or the entire
unfortunate history with Native-Americans. Some of these events, such

Actually, I believe in 1972 or so, the US government apologized for
slavery. They also apologized for the internment.
However, apologies are seldom given much publicity either, after the
fact. They would be a reminder of the unfortunate episode which prompted
them.

An exception might be the way history is dealt with in Germany, it`s
pretty much alive here...

[James Eckman]

[Moderator's note: this is straying a bit from considerations about
Japan. Let's bring it back around, please.]

Post by john_ccy
Take the US for example. In my 32 years of
existence, I'm not sure if I ever heard any politican apologizing for
slavery, segregation, internment of Japanese-Americans, or the entire
unfortunate history with Native-Americans.

There was an official apology for the internments along with a cash
settlement in the US. In the early 60's in California schools it was
also brought up as something bad that happened, of course we just
thought the goodies brought to school were cool then!

Can we compare this to the Koreans still living in Japan who lost their
citizenship in the 50's? Or their children who are also not citizens? I
do realize the US is strange in that we guarantee citizenship for ANYONE
born here. Only Canada, Mexico and a few other countries whose names
escape me do that.

During the Civil War we lost the largest number of people that we have
in ANY war, is that enough of an apology? How were other countries
treating minorities in this period? The French deserve a round of
applause here, they had black generals during the Napoleonic era, over
100 years before we did. The Japanese at this time were still killing
and imprisoning any foreigners unlucky enough to be washed up on their
shore.

As for the "unfortunate" history with Native-Americans, Britain and
Spain have never apologized that I'm aware of. Nowadays our apologies go
along with special privileges like longer fishing seasons, selling
fireworks where the Anglos can't and running casinos. All of which has
brought a fair amount of prosperity to my brother's family.

Post by john_ccy
Some of these events, such as segregation

Equal Opportunity laws, passed to correct these wrongs? Fair Housing
laws? Cross-racial marriages were still illegal in some states until the
60's, in California nowadays, it's not even something special, it's so
common.

Post by john_ccy
The government, however, never actually
made good on its promise to former slaves of "40 acres and a mule" that
they had promised them during the Civil War

No it opened up the homestead act to EVERY American instead. Which was
more than 40 acres. And there were a fair number of black homesteaders.

and has never brought up

Post by john_ccy
the subject of compensation for those who suffered under segregation.

Plainly speaking, poppycock. You weren't even alive during the 60's, you
obviously are ignorant of what happened then and the laws passed, many
of which are still in force to right past injustices. As for modern
Japan, almost all higher civil service offices and some functions like
firemen are completely denied to any foreigner because of their current
laws. Their high court has recently ruled that this is OK, keep it up.

The US is still pretty screwed up and our current regime seems bent on
turning back the clock, but they are finally getting some serious push back.

As for the citizenship subject in Japan, I really can't fault them too
much since most of the world holds the same views, that blood determines
if you are a citizen or not. When China took over Hong Kong, anyone who
was not full blooded Chinese was not granted citizenship.

I think the really important part of this whole thread is that the
Japanese keep the memory of what happened alive so they don't repeat it.
I don't hold almost anyone living today responsible for actions of 60
years ago. You would have to be in your 70's to even participate, much
less be able to influence actions of your country.

Jim Eckman

[Prophet of the Way]

Here are two lawsuits that deserve our attention:

Korean hibakusha win redress appeal
Japan Times, January 20 2005
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20050120a1.htm

Government pressures court to dismiss 'war orphan' suit
Japan Times, December 12 2003
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20031212b2.htm

As of 'VAWW-NET vs. NHK et al.' the plaintiff NGO sees the lower court ruling as
a partial victory at best for only one contracting firm was found responsible.
To VAWW-NET, the lizard escaped leaving behind part of its tail.

Post by Prophet of the Way
Nanjing Massacre Survivor Wins Lawsuit
China Internet Information Center
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2005/Jan/118585.htm
Supreme Court ruling.

I checked major Japanese newspapers on this. Not one carried this article
(January 20 Eve -22).

As for the legal system in general, Japan's courts are crowded, lawyers
are scarce. Hostile takeovers which target major firms are increasing,
something unheard of in the nation praised in Ezra Vogel's 'Japan as
Number One'. Predatory business activity comes with lots of sore points
headed toward court.

Japanese students receive little encouragement to develop the skills and
attitudes of the good citizenship which helps reduce legal squabbles.
Schools are the breeding ground of lethargy. The scarcity of
native-Japanese posters here is one consequence.

Douso, The Prophet of the Way

[James Eckman]

Post by Prophet of the Way
Japanese students receive little encouragement to develop the skills and
attitudes of the good citizenship which helps reduce legal squabbles.
Schools are the breeding ground of lethargy. The scarcity of
native-Japanese posters here is one consequence.

Nowadays there are few posts of any kind, so I think the last is of no
importance.

I'm a bit confused about your post, do you mean it is good citizenship
to ignore horrible injustice and to just grin and bear it? The Japanese
courts are not in any way a vehicle for reform, but on the other hand
the early 50's US Supreme Court was not a model of progressive politics
either. When the situation got bad enough in terms of the law it moved
finally to fix some of the really nasty imbalances. This might happen in
Japan if the court gets a wild hair up its butt.

Jim Eckman

[Prophet of the Way]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Prophet of the Way
Japanese students receive little encouragement to develop the skills and
attitudes of the good citizenship which helps reduce legal squabbles.
Schools are the breeding ground of lethargy. The scarcity of
native-Japanese posters here is one consequence.

Nowadays there are few posts of any kind, so I think the last is of no
importance.
I'm a bit confused about your post, do you mean it is good citizenship
to ignore horrible injustice and to just grin and bear it?

Libel can be avoided by holding the pen straight while writing.

When horrible injustice is ignored there are consequences to the greater
society. Is it good citizenship to fail to see this?

'Japan as Number One' came out in 1979. At that time there was growing
criticism toward excessive litigation in the United States. I think
this may be the source of your confusion. There is mention on Japanese
methods of solving and preventing problems in this book. To what extent
they are employed or effective in Japan today is another question,

[Cindy]

Post by Prophet of the Way

Post by James Eckman

Post by Prophet of the Way
Japanese students receive little encouragement to develop the skills and
attitudes of the good citizenship which helps reduce legal squabbles.
Schools are the breeding ground of lethargy. The scarcity of
native-Japanese posters here is one consequence.

Nowadays there are few posts of any kind, so I think the last is of no
importance.
I'm a bit confused about your post, do you mean it is good citizenship
to ignore horrible injustice and to just grin and bear it?

Libel can be avoided by holding the pen straight while writing.
When horrible injustice is ignored there are consequences to the greater
society. Is it good citizenship to fail to see this?

That'll make many Japanese grandfathers (senior citizens) war criminals
and lose their respect. The younger generations start questioning "Did
my grandfather kill Chinese people like how it's written in the book?"
Every family has a war criminal or two. Everybody starts disrespecting
senior citizens who have an experience of the war. Perhaps, just any
old people are discriminated for the same reason. Do you really want
this to happen?

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
That'll make many Japanese grandfathers (senior citizens) war criminals
and lose their respect. The younger generations start questioning "Did
my grandfather kill Chinese people like how it's written in the book?"

It's certainly a delicate subject in Japan. I don't know what's
currently taught in American schools, but when I was younger we were
taught about slavery, the Indian massacres and Japanese-American
internment. Most students pretty much ignored it. I think most Japanese
students would do the same for WW2 history.

Post by Cindy
Every family has a war criminal or two. Everybody starts disrespecting
senior citizens who have an experience of the war.

I don't think this would happen for this reason. Young people need no
excuses for disrespecting their elders, it comes naturally.

Post by Cindy
Perhaps, just any old people are discriminated for the same reason. Do you really want
this to happen?

No, but I find the recent movies and TV series that show Japanese as the
victims and the Chinese and Americans as perpetrators without any
counterbalancing views a disturbing trend. American and Chinese film are
guilty of that from time to time as well, but nowadays I think they try
not to be so one dimensional.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
That'll make many Japanese grandfathers (senior citizens) war criminals
and lose their respect. The younger generations start questioning "Did
my grandfather kill Chinese people like how it's written in the book?"

It's certainly a delicate subject in Japan. I don't know what's
currently taught in American schools, but when I was younger we were
taught about slavery, the Indian massacres and Japanese-American
internment. Most students pretty much ignored it. I think most Japanese
students would do the same for WW2 history.

Well, I did the opposite then. I remember one middle school teacher
told the class about his experience in the war. He told us about how
tough his superior had been and so on but nothing about his battle or
how many he had killed. I truly enjoyed his stories. However, later
on, I learned about all terrible events during the invasion in Asia.
Then, I started thinking if Mr. Miyasaka had killed any people in the
war. He went to the war so that he must've killed someone. Maybe he
raped women before he killed them. It's unhealthy to have a doubt like
this towards your school teacher, and nobody will talk about the war
anymore.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Every family has a war criminal or two. Everybody starts disrespecting
senior citizens who have an experience of the war.

I don't think this would happen for this reason. Young people need no
excuses for disrespecting their elders, it comes naturally.

You can keep talking about it in "general". In general, I agree to
express "Sensou Hantai". But, how do you think about those families
that had had to give up their own son feel like? They gave up their son
to be called a murderer? How do you balance this?

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Perhaps, just any old people are discriminated for the same reason. Do you really want
this to happen?

No, but I find the recent movies and TV series that show Japanese as the
victims and the Chinese and Americans as perpetrators without any
counterbalancing views a disturbing trend. American and Chinese film are
guilty of that from time to time as well, but nowadays I think they try
not to be so one dimensional.

Come down to a more individual level.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
Well, I did the opposite then. I remember one middle school teacher
told the class about his experience in the war. He told us about how
tough his superior had been and so on but nothing about his battle or
how many he had killed. I truly enjoyed his stories. However, later
on, I learned about all terrible events during the invasion in Asia.
Then, I started thinking if Mr. Miyasaka had killed any people in the
war. He went to the war so that he must've killed someone.

Did you learn about the rest of the war outside of school or in school?
Sadly the real lesson to learn is that all countries and governments are
capable of atrocious acts and I think it is a citizen's duty to be
informed and to try and prevent them happening again. Probably the best
place to learn this is in school where it can be presented in an even
manner.

If it's any consolation, even after army training most soldiers will not
shoot at another human being. On the average only 10-20% during WW2,
even if your teacher saw combat he probably didn't kill anyone.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
I don't think this would happen for this reason. Young people need no
excuses for disrespecting their elders, it comes naturally.

You can keep talking about it in "general".

My older Japanese friends complain that younger people have no manners
and are disrespectful. So do my American friends. 2,000 years ago, so
did the Romans. I think I can safely say the above statement based on my
experiences as well as that of others over the millenium.

I'm not sure how old you are, do you find younger Japanese people
disrespectful? Just curious.

Post by Cindy
In general, I agree to
express "Sensou Hantai". But, how do you think about those families
that had had to give up their own son feel like? They gave up their son
to be called a murderer? How do you balance this?

By realizing that common soldiers have to follow orders or they are
imprisoned or killed. They were very young, following the orders of
people who should of known better. This should be taught in school as well.

On the other hand, teaching all of this in American schools hasn't
stopped us from starting wars of aggression either, so maybe it's not
needed in Japanese schools either.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman
Did you learn about the rest of the war outside of school or in school?

Introduction was done unexpectedly by a Japanese language teacher when I
was in high school. It was just a few minutes as well. All class was
stunned for a while. He said "Do you really know what they did in the
war?" and the rests were just same as what you heard. I never tried to
pursue or discuss with anyone else until I came to the US because people
didn't seem to be comfortable talking about it.

Post by James Eckman
Sadly the real lesson to learn is that all countries and governments are
capable of atrocious acts and I think it is a citizen's duty to be
informed and to try and prevent them happening again. Probably the best
place to learn this is in school where it can be presented in an even
manner.

The best place to learn this is having a discussion with the people from
the countries that the Japanese invaded. Guess what, my best friend
now is a Chinese lady who is from Koushu. She tells me about the
experience her mother had. It's certainly cruel but very interesting.

Post by James Eckman
If it's any consolation, even after army training most soldiers will not
shoot at another human being. On the average only 10-20% during WW2,
even if your teacher saw combat he probably didn't kill anyone.

Believe anything you want to. I have no control.

Post by James Eckman
My older Japanese friends complain that younger people have no manners
and are disrespectful. So do my American friends. 2,000 years ago, so
did the Romans. I think I can safely say the above statement based on my
experiences as well as that of others over the millenium.

Are you aware that America is a youth oriented country? Japan is not
quite yet. You can not measure Japan with your scale. Some things
don't work like the USA.

Post by James Eckman
I'm not sure how old you are, do you find younger Japanese people
disrespectful? Just curious.

Well, I was disrespectful when I was younger, so I can't point a finger
at them.

Post by James Eckman
By realizing that common soldiers have to follow orders or they are
imprisoned or killed. They were very young, following the orders of
people who should of known better. This should be taught in school as well.

In my opinion, school teaches nothing when you come to this type of
topic. You got to get out of your country and discover it by yourself.

Post by James Eckman
On the other hand, teaching all of this in American schools hasn't
stopped us from starting wars of aggression either, so maybe it's not
needed in Japanese schools either.

By the way, during the occupation era, do you know what GIs did to
Japanese women?

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
My older Japanese friends complain that younger people have no manners
and are disrespectful. So do my American friends. 2,000 years ago, so
did the Romans. I think I can safely say the above statement based on my
experiences as well as that of others over the millenium.

Are you aware that America is a youth oriented country? Japan is not
quite yet. You can not measure Japan with your scale. Some things
don't work like the USA.

Do you realize Rome is not part of the US?

No?

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
I'm not sure how old you are, do you find younger Japanese people
disrespectful? Just curious.

Well, I was disrespectful when I was younger, so I can't point a finger
at them.

So, the analogy about disrespectful youth has international truth?

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
By realizing that common soldiers have to follow orders or they are
imprisoned or killed. They were very young, following the orders of
people who should of known better. This should be taught in school as well.

In my opinion, school teaches nothing when you come to this type of
topic. You got to get out of your country and discover it by yourself.

And you don't see that that's a problem?

BTW, have you ever heard of Ienaga? Asahi Shimbun?

Post by Cindy
By the way, during the occupation era, do you know what GIs did to
Japanese women?

I'd imagine it involved sex, on occassion, but maybe that's only the
American case.

Mike

[Cindy]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

By the way, during the occupation era, do you know what GIs did to=20
Japanese women?

=20
=20
I'd imagine it involved sex, on occassion, but maybe that's only the
American case.

I am sure you heard about Sander's Home.=E3=80=80=E3=80=80What do you thi=
nk of this=20
article?

http://www5d.biglobe.ne.jp/~quest-jp/women/wm1.html

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Did you learn about the rest of the war outside of school or in school?

Introduction was done unexpectedly by a Japanese language teacher when I
was in high school. It was just a few minutes as well. All class was
stunned for a while. He said "Do you really know what they did in the
war?"

That sounds like close to nothing. We had exposure to things like the
Japanese-American internment as early as fourth grade as a planned part
of the curriculum, though I will note the US does not have much of a
national education policy and in the 50's and 60's California education
was very progressive. We still haven't admitted all our mistakes for our
more recent wars and oppressions but I hope we eventually will.

Post by Cindy
The best place to learn this is having a discussion with the people from
the countries that the Japanese invaded.

I have, many times. In the one Chinese company I worked for they
wouldn't talk to one Japanese-American until he told them his father
served in the US army and that his family was in the US during the war.

Post by Cindy
Guess what, my best friend now is a Chinese lady who is from Koushu. She tells me about the
experience her mother had. It's certainly cruel but very interesting.

It was not a good time for Chinese.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
If it's any consolation, even after army training most soldiers will not
shoot at another human being. On the average only 10-20% during WW2,
even if your teacher saw combat he probably didn't kill anyone.

Believe anything you want to. I have no control.

I believe the extensive studies that the US army did during and after
the war trying to figure out why most of their and other armies soldiers
would not shoot at enemy soldiers.

One of the more accessible studies is SLA Marshall's "Men Against Fire",
there have been others as well, the results of which are all
contreversal because no military likes thinking of themselves as cowards.

Post by Cindy
Are you aware that America is a youth oriented country?

Believe me, I know. It's a big problem in my profession of engineering,
I'm the oldest person in my group by a good margin.

Post by Cindy
Japan is not quite yet.

Yes, and I think that's to Japan's credit, I think it is a positive
social trait to listen to and respect your elders at least.

Post by Cindy
You can not measure Japan with your scale. Some things don't work like the USA.

Possibly, but the Japanese are still people so they still behave like
people everywhere else for very much the same reasons.

Post by Cindy
Well, I was disrespectful when I was younger, so I can't point a finger
at them.

I don't either for the same reason. But I do find it funny.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
By realizing that common soldiers have to follow orders or they are
imprisoned or killed. They were very young, following the orders of
people who should of known better. This should be taught in school as well.

In my opinion, school teaches nothing when you come to this type of
topic. You got to get out of your country and discover it by yourself.

You mean Japanese school, it was covered and extensively discussed in
California schools I attended. Vietnam was a very hot topic and I had
personal worries since I came within a month and a half of being drafted.

Post by Cindy
By the way, during the occupation era, do you know what GIs did to
Japanese women?

Paid for sex, some were raped and soldiers were punished if caught and
after the anti-fraternization law was dropped many of them married
Japanese girls.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman
Paid for sex, some were raped and soldiers were punished if caught and
after the anti-fraternization law was dropped many of them married
Japanese girls.

Probably nobody will tell you. Because of this event, any gaijin who
comes to Japan and dates with any Japanese woman reminds some people the
occupation era and makes he look a GI buying a panpan's service.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Paid for sex, some were raped and soldiers were punished if caught and
after the anti-fraternization law was dropped many of them married
Japanese girls.

Probably nobody will tell you.

So, you're not going to tell us either?

Post by Cindy
Because of this event, any gaijin who
comes to Japan and dates with any Japanese woman reminds some people the
occupation era and makes he look a GI buying a panpan's service.

So, all these "haafu" stars on TV have panpan mothers?

You really are quite racist, you know?

Mike

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Paid for sex, some were raped and soldiers were punished if caught and
after the anti-fraternization law was dropped many of them married
Japanese girls.

Probably nobody will tell you. Because of this event, any gaijin who
comes to Japan and dates with any Japanese woman reminds some people the
occupation era and makes he look a GI buying a panpan's service.

That's been the case with foreign troops since the dawn of history. And
it doesn't just apply to occupiers. My parents' generation used to say
of their allies on R&R that the main problem was their "three overs"

Over-paid, over-sexed, and over here.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
Probably nobody will tell you.

Possibly true in the Japanese case, no Japanese has ever talked about
meeting GIs to me other than teasing comments to their spouse when I was
MUCH younger.

Post by Cindy
Because of this event,

In the case of returning GIs, I suspect part of the stories I've heard
are utter lies, everybody lies about sex. Unless of course the Japanese
don't ;) But I have been told the following:

1. A Chinese-American acquaintance shacked up (lived with) a Japanese
girl right after the war in Japan while he was stationed there.
2. The sex trade is alive in well in Japan today, so that there was a
large sex trade like many people have claimed to experience after the
war is very believable.
3. I know several war bride families, the wife and husbands usually met
in bars or nightclubs and in some cases the birth of the first child was
very shortly after the marriage.
4. There are some short stories written after the war by Japanese on the
subject about these topics, since they are fictionalized, it's hard to
tell how realistic they are but I'm pretty sure that mistresses were
abandoned and women lied to about marriage and the like.

Part of the problem in the mid-40s is that in the US mixed marriages
were still highly frowned upon and in many states illegal (California
1948), so any marriages had to overcome that hurdle followed by the
anti-fraternization act which was in effect for a period which made it
illegal for GIs to associate with Japanese in Japan.

The girls had big problems over this with their families as well, though
after 10+ years they were finally accepted back into the family.

Post by Cindy
any gaijin who
comes to Japan and dates with any Japanese woman reminds some people the
occupation era and makes he look a GI buying a panpan's service.

Such a person would have to be in their 60's at least to even remember
the occupation, so I suspect that this is not very common any more. Also
would you automatically assume that a Japanese woman dating a foreigner
was a prostitute? I find that highly offensive. There are Japanese,
highly educated, moral, career women who date foreigners.

Of course Japanese men would never have immoral relationships with
foreign women ;)

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Probably nobody will tell you.

Possibly true in the Japanese case, no Japanese has ever talked about
meeting GIs to me other than teasing comments to their spouse when I was
MUCH younger.

They don't tell you straight, but they put down on your girlfriend with
sarcasm.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Because of this event,

In the case of returning GIs, I suspect part of the stories I've heard
are utter lies, everybody lies about sex. Unless of course the Japanese
1. A Chinese-American acquaintance shacked up (lived with) a Japanese
girl right after the war in Japan while he was stationed there.
2. The sex trade is alive in well in Japan today, so that there was a
large sex trade like many people have claimed to experience after the
war is very believable.
3. I know several war bride families, the wife and husbands usually met
in bars or nightclubs and in some cases the birth of the first child was
very shortly after the marriage.
4. There are some short stories written after the war by Japanese on the
subject about these topics, since they are fictionalized, it's hard to
tell how realistic they are but I'm pretty sure that mistresses were
abandoned and women lied to about marriage and the like.
Part of the problem in the mid-40s is that in the US mixed marriages
were still highly frowned upon and in many states illegal (California
1948), so any marriages had to overcome that hurdle followed by the
anti-fraternization act which was in effect for a period which made it
illegal for GIs to associate with Japanese in Japan.
The girls had big problems over this with their families as well, though
after 10+ years they were finally accepted back into the family.

Post by Cindy
any gaijin who
comes to Japan and dates with any Japanese woman reminds some people the
occupation era and makes he look a GI buying a panpan's service.

Such a person would have to be in their 60's at least to even remember
the occupation, so I suspect that this is not very common any more. Also
would you automatically assume that a Japanese woman dating a foreigner
was a prostitute?

Some people do that, OK? I don't do that because I am married to an
American. Some have done that to me. You may not believe it, but my
mother-in-law did that. What a bitch.

Post by James Eckman
I find that highly offensive. There are Japanese,
highly educated, moral, career women who date foreigners.

You mean respectable women? Don't you generalize that prostitutes are
uneducated. Since there was no food, no clothes, no money, nothing,
those women had to become a panpan to get food for their family members.
Certainly many of them didn't have proper education like you think,
but it is all because of the war. If you see your family is starving to
death, you'll go for anything even for prostitution. That's how they
survived the post war period.

Post by James Eckman
Of course Japanese men would never have immoral relationships with
foreign women ;)

I don't know about them very much.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
They don't tell you straight, but they put down on your girlfriend with
sarcasm.

My Japanese isn't the greatest, but it's enough to figure out that. I
would probably say something smart alecky like 'You must be from the
country' ;)

Post by Cindy
Some people do that, OK? I don't do that because I am married to an
American. Some have done that to me. You may not believe it, but my
mother-in-law did that. What a bitch.

There are racists everywhere. It's just socially unacceptable in most of
urban California. In Los Angeles in the Japanese community over 50% of
the marriages are mixed and frankly it's nothing special anymore.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
I find that highly offensive. There are Japanese,
highly educated, moral, career women who date foreigners.

You mean respectable women?

No, I meant exactly what I said. You can be educated and immoral. I know
a fair number of people in that category. If you are self-supporting as
well, then you are only dating for love and friendship.

Post by Cindy
Don't you generalize that prostitutes are uneducated.

I'm not, you are putting words in my mouth.

Post by Cindy
Since there was no food, no clothes, no money, nothing,
those women had to become a panpan to get food for their family members.

Yes I understand that. I've read about it and I have friends who had to
pick through trash for food.

Post by Cindy
Certainly many of them didn't have proper education like you think,
but it is all because of the war.

I'm hopelessly American, education is not just a degree, it's life
experience, studying and thinking. My dad only finished Junior college
about the same time I did, but he self-studied for the Professional
Engineer's exam.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
They don't tell you straight, but they put down on your girlfriend with
sarcasm.

My Japanese isn't the greatest, but it's enough to figure out that. I
would probably say something smart alecky like 'You must be from the
country' ;)

No, that's not a good idea. Don't make a fool out of yourself.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Some people do that, OK? I don't do that because I am married to an
American. Some have done that to me. You may not believe it, but my
mother-in-law did that. What a bitch.

There are racists everywhere. It's just socially unacceptable in most of
urban California. In Los Angeles in the Japanese community over 50% of
the marriages are mixed and frankly it's nothing special anymore.

It's nothing special anymore? You never understand what I've been through.

Post by James Eckman
No, I meant exactly what I said. You can be educated and immoral. I know
a fair number of people in that category. If you are self-supporting as
well, then you are only dating for love and friendship.

Yeah, I've found that many educated people are selfish and arrogant. I
start thinking that probably you got to be selfish and arrogant to go to
school and receive a degree. Those students who already have a high
degree talk as if they were a professor or a politician. Self-esteem is
a good thing, but too much of it isn't.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Since there was no food, no clothes, no money, nothing,
those women had to become a panpan to get food for their family members.

Yes I understand that. I've read about it and I have friends who had to
pick through trash for food.

I believe there was not even trash after the war.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Certainly many of them didn't have proper education like you think,
but it is all because of the war.

I'm hopelessly American, education is not just a degree, it's life
experience, studying and thinking. My dad only finished Junior college
about the same time I did, but he self-studied for the Professional
Engineer's exam.

Now a days, a college degree doesn't guarantee your job. A huge number
of engineers got laid off. Retirement doesn't guarantee your retirement
either. Some got laid off just before their retirement so that the
company can save money. Investment companies don't guarantee your
investment; it's a gamble. The government lies, cheats, and changes
mind often. They are certainly good examples of selfishness and
arrogance indeed.

I've heard that many young Japanese are feeling: "So why do you go to
college? You will get laid off anyway?"

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
No, that's not a good idea. Don't make a fool out of yourself.

Too late, I already post to newsgroups.

Post by Cindy
It's nothing special anymore? You never understand what I've been through.

Nope, I have no idea where you live, when you got married and anything
about you or your family. However when I was growing up in the 50's and
60's it was much tougher for mixed couples than it is now. Several
friends of mine in that period were from mixed marriages including one
who had an Indonesian father and a Dutch mother. They had stones thrown
at them in a few cases and until the later 60's were forbidden to live
in many Southern California cities.

Kind of like Japan nowadays, where foreigners aren't allowed to live in
many places.

Post by Cindy
Yeah, I've found that many educated people are selfish and arrogant. I
start thinking that probably you got to be selfish and arrogant to go to
school and receive a degree.

I was selfish, I went to school to study engineering so I wouldn't have
to pick crops or swamp out oil tanks again.

Post by Cindy
Those students who already have a high degree talk as if they were a professor or a politician. Self-esteem is
a good thing, but too much of it isn't.

That depends on the person, in my experience you don't need an education
to be egotistical.

Post by Cindy
I believe there was not even trash after the war.

I've never met anyone who starved to death. That's because I can't speak
to them, they are dead.

Post by Cindy
Now a days, a college degree doesn't guarantee your job.

Never did, especially for things like library science and the like.
Though I understand Todai graduates are pretty much garaunteed some sort
of job because of the university's prestige.

In America now, my college degree doesn't mean anything. My employers
look at my job experience and get references and figure I can do the
job. In Japan, from what coworkers have said, your degrees are much more
important.

Post by Cindy
A huge number of engineers got laid off.

This is America, you find another job. It's not really a blackmark on
your record. Anyone who doesn't expect to be laid off in engineering at
some time is bucking 50+ years of tradition.

One of the really big differences between Japan and America is that in
America, you get multiple chances many times. In Japan, you only usually
get one chance for a good job and that's it. One reason I know several
Japanese who immigrated to America.

Post by Cindy
Retirement doesn't guarantee your retirement either. Some got laid off just before their retirement so that the
company can save money. Investment companies don't guarantee your
investment; it's a gamble. The government lies, cheats, and changes
mind often. They are certainly good examples of selfishness and
arrogance indeed.

How does this differ from Japan? Even big companies are restructuring.
Japanese banks are thieves (as seen on NHK!) Sadly your national
government may be less corrupt than ours right now. I don't see much
difference there.

Post by Cindy
I've heard that many young Japanese are feeling: "So why do you go to
college? You will get laid off anyway?"

Americans are possibly a bit more optimistic, though many Americans
don't go to college because they see no use in education of any kind.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman
Kind of like Japan nowadays, where foreigners aren't allowed to live in
many places.

So, what happened to you? Were you turned down?

Post by James Eckman
That depends on the person, in my experience you don't need an education
to be egotistical.

Oh, in my class, those students are shouting what degrees they have all
the time. I am tired of hearing it. They are representing good
egotistical examples of Americans. Thanks very much and very embarrassing.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
I believe there was not even trash after the war.

I've never met anyone who starved to death.

That's the point! They say "Americans don't know starvation". You have
been so blessed with food, so you have never experienced real hunger.
You can't stand just a little hunger, and you have to eat more than
enough. Look what is happening to the Americans now. Those obese
people seem to like they are afraid of hunger. Is hunger such a bad
thing? Can't just a little food satisfy them? I am seriously dreaming
that I should form a big American Sumo League across the continent.
That'll appreciate American's obesity finally.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Now a days, a college degree doesn't guarantee your job.

Never did, especially for things like library science and the like.
Though I understand Todai graduates are pretty much garaunteed some sort
of job because of the university's prestige.

In Japan, a degree doesn't count; which university you graduated counts.

Post by James Eckman
One of the really big differences between Japan and America is that in
America, you get multiple chances many times. In Japan, you only usually
get one chance for a good job and that's it.

In Japan, you should have a good connection with right people to let you
through to what you want. Therefore, you need a lot of cooperation from
others. In order to keep a good relationship, you may want to pay
attention to benefit of modesty.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
So, what happened to you? Were you turned down?

No, because I was working for a reputable company and was living in
hotels where foreigners stayed. In Japan several of my friends had
problems with renting even though they had the money and had their
papers. This type of practice is illegal in the US and at least in most
parts of California it is actively enforced.

Post by Cindy
Oh, in my class, those students are shouting what degrees they have all
the time. I am tired of hearing it. They are representing good
egotistical examples of Americans. Thanks very much and very embarrassing.

That sounds very weird to me, but then most of my class mates at college
weren't American since I was studying engineering. My experience may not
have been typical.

Post by Cindy
That's the point! They say "Americans don't know starvation".

For my generation that's mostly true with the exceptions of blacks,
American Indians and Hispanics. For the people who lived during the
great depression in the 30's this is absolutely not true. Many Americans
starved to death in that period. Nowadays thanks to our wonderful
government and the retarded electorate we now have a growing class of
homeless and people living in extreme poverty of all colors.

Post by Cindy
You have been so blessed with food, so you have never experienced real hunger.

That's true, I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the
60's or after in Japan, I doubt you have either.

Post by Cindy
You can't stand just a little hunger, and you have to eat more than
enough. Look what is happening to the Americans now. Those obese
people seem to like they are afraid of hunger. Is hunger such a bad
thing? Can't just a little food satisfy them? I am seriously dreaming
that I should form a big American Sumo League across the continent.
That'll appreciate American's obesity finally.

It's starting to be a problem in Japan as well. It's very tough for
people to resist overeating when your instincts cry out, eat more! Fat
is good. Also in some subcultures, skinny is considered unattractive.

The American diet is something the Japanese shouldn't copy. Japanese
portions are generally much saner and with the exception of too much
salt and too much white rice a healthier cuisine.

Post by Cindy
In Japan, a degree doesn't count; which university you graduated counts.

I've heard that, a friend of mine was able to get a job with a Japanese
company based on her MIT degree and not her work experience. Even
Japanese companies in the US practice this even when the person is one
of the top experts in their field. No degree or degree from a cowtown
college equals no job. This is a bit crazy to my way of thinking, I
think proven ability is more important than credentials.

Post by Cindy
In Japan, you should have a good connection with right people to let you
through to what you want. Therefore, you need a lot of cooperation from
others. In order to keep a good relationship, you may want to pay
attention to benefit of modesty.

But unless you have really powerful friends, you will probably not get a
good second job if you have lost your first one. In the US you can get a
good job after losing your first job.

I'm aware of the power of connections, I have only landed one job going
through a normal hiring process. All of the rest were found by referals
by friends and former coworkers. In the US this is called the Old Boys
network and several less printable names.

Being excessively modest in the US will hurt your career so your advice
does not apply to the US.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman
For my generation that's mostly true with the exceptions of blacks,
American Indians and Hispanics. For the people who lived during the
great depression in the 30's this is absolutely not true. Many Americans
starved to death in that period. Nowadays thanks to our wonderful
government and the retarded electorate we now have a growing class of
homeless and people living in extreme poverty of all colors.

Yeah, precious taxpayer's money is spent on those illegal immigrant's
education, health care, welfare, and food stamps. If you are very poor,
you can get free medical. I think the USA is a wonderful country for
low income people and illegal immigrants. This is one thing Japan can
not do.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
You have been so blessed with food, so you have never experienced real hunger.

That's true, I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the
60's or after in Japan, I doubt you have either.

But my parents know the hardest time after the war. Their spirits are
in me.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
You can't stand just a little hunger, and you have to eat more than
enough. Look what is happening to the Americans now. Those obese
people seem to like they are afraid of hunger. Is hunger such a bad
thing? Can't just a little food satisfy them? I am seriously dreaming
that I should form a big American Sumo League across the continent.
That'll appreciate American's obesity finally.

It's starting to be a problem in Japan as well. It's very tough for
people to resist overeating when your instincts cry out, eat more! Fat
is good. Also in some subcultures, skinny is considered unattractive.

It is good also that obese people support medical industry, insurance
business, and food manufacture, of course. However, they got to realize
that when something happens to them such as falling, not many people can
help them up. A small person like me has to get away from them because
they may break my limbs or ribs or even back bones if they fall over me.
Just think 350 pounds meat falling from the sky. It's a same impact
as a pick up truck run over you.

Post by James Eckman
The American diet is something the Japanese shouldn't copy. Japanese
portions are generally much saner and with the exception of too much
salt and too much white rice a healthier cuisine.

There is no perfect diet. White rice is still better than those
biscuits with gravy, huge muffins, pizzas, french fries, pastas, cakes,
pies, and on and on. Too much carbohydrates plus fat and sugar.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
In Japan, a degree doesn't count; which university you graduated counts.

I've heard that, a friend of mine was able to get a job with a Japanese
company based on her MIT degree and not her work experience. Even
Japanese companies in the US practice this even when the person is one
of the top experts in their field. No degree or degree from a cowtown
college equals no job. This is a bit crazy to my way of thinking, I
think proven ability is more important than credentials.

You think experience and ability are the first priority, but it's a
naive belief. Some governmental ministries or corporations want to hire
only Todai graduates or specific university graduates. Sometimes,
overly ambitious and smart person like you are not wanted. They are
looking for a specific person for specific needs plus, by a very special
person's recommendation.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
In Japan, you should have a good connection with right people to let you
through to what you want. Therefore, you need a lot of cooperation from
others. In order to keep a good relationship, you may want to pay
attention to benefit of modesty.

But unless you have really powerful friends, you will probably not get a
good second job if you have lost your first one. In the US you can get a
good job after losing your first job.

That's why you need to make connections.

Post by James Eckman
I'm aware of the power of connections, I have only landed one job going
through a normal hiring process. All of the rest were found by referals
by friends and former coworkers. In the US this is called the Old Boys
network and several less printable names.

In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger. They need
someone who can tell about you when they look at your resume. I think I
perfectly understand why.

Post by James Eckman
Being excessively modest in the US will hurt your career so your advice
does not apply to the US.

Interestingly, I heard stereotypical views of some ethnic groups from
one of my classmates. She called herself a redneck and labeled that
blacks are lazy and Asians are pushy. She made me chuckle quite good.
I kinda understand and imagine that since Asians are not very fast in
speaking (English), instead, they just go ahead and do the work. In
order to get their job done, they can be very pushy instead of having a
sweet conversation.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
Yeah, precious taxpayer's money is spent on those illegal immigrant's
education, health care, welfare, and food stamps.

You don't know any illegal immigrants I can tell that from the above
statement. Most of them are here to work and they work hard. If their
kids remain healthy and get something of an education that's even
better. It's to late to keep the riff-raff out, my ancestors have
already arrived.

To bring it back to Japan, how are illegal immigrants treated in Japan?
I don't really read or see much about them other than the ones in the
sex trade. Who are treated badly and who's employers are rarely fined.

Post by Cindy
If you are very poor, you can get free medical. I think the USA is a wonderful country for
low income people and illegal immigrants. This is one thing Japan can not do.

Really? Why not? Japan is as wealthy as the US and wealthier than
Canada, Australia and other countries that help refugees. I also have to
take back my statement about Americans of my generation not knowing
hunger because we have 100,000+ refugees who have come here from very
bad environments who are now Americans. Refugees that Japan refused to
admit in some cases.

Post by Cindy
There is no perfect diet. White rice is still better than those
biscuits with gravy, huge muffins, pizzas, french fries, pastas, cakes,
pies, and on and on. Too much carbohydrates plus fat and sugar.

White rice is a fairly highly processed carbohydrate with little
nutritional value. It's as bad a white bread and even more tasteless.
But that's my background speaking, I prefer the super heavy whole wheat
and rye breads to rice. While there's no perfect diet, it's far better
to eat whole grains rather than highly processed grains.

Post by Cindy
You think experience and ability are the first priority,

I do.

Post by Cindy
but it's a naive belief.

Not in America thank god! I can usually find a decent job when I need to.

Post by Cindy
Some governmental ministries or corporations want to hire
only Todai graduates or specific university graduates. Sometimes,
overly ambitious and smart person like you are not wanted. They are
looking for a specific person for specific needs plus, by a very special
person's recommendation.

That happens in the US as well, but not to any degree like Japan. Also
how do you know I'm overly ambitious and smart? I've turned down upper
management positions and I'm more than happy to go home in a timely
fashion and read, paint or build something. Also if I was really smart I
would have went into law or management.

Post by Cindy
In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger.

My company does it all the time. So do most companies when times are
good and the jobs are plentiful, it's more a help during bad times.

Post by Cindy
They need someone who can tell about you when they look at your resume.

That's what references are for.

Post by Cindy
I kinda understand and imagine that since Asians are not very fast in
speaking (English), instead, they just go ahead and do the work. In
order to get their job done, they can be very pushy instead of having a
sweet conversation.

At most of the places I've worked, to have sweet conversation I would
have to speak either Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Cambodian,
Spanish, Russian, French and assorted other languages. There was one
company where I was the only native English speaker. I suspect also your
friend has no real work experience. People pretty much carry on like
other people at least in the places I've worked, it really doesn't
matter where they are from. It is cool being able to celebrate more than
just American holidays! Though once again, I'm in the Silicon Valley,
many companies have classes to help understand other cultures, including
American, so my experiences may not be typical.

Actually the one somewhat strange feeling I had working in Japan is, wow
like there's only Japanese working here! Along with the normal
embarassment of figuring out the office/bathroom shoe dance.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Yeah, precious taxpayer's money is spent on those illegal immigrant's
education, health care, welfare, and food stamps.

You don't know any illegal immigrants I can tell that from the above
statement. Most of them are here to work and they work hard. If their
kids remain healthy and get something of an education that's even
better. It's to late to keep the riff-raff out, my ancestors have
already arrived.

I live in Texas. One border line is righ there bringing a lot of
immigrants.

Post by James Eckman
To bring it back to Japan, how are illegal immigrants treated in Japan?

They are usually deported.

Post by James Eckman
I don't really read or see much about them other than the ones in the
sex trade. Who are treated badly and who's employers are rarely fined.

So? Don't you start "In the US, ..."

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
If you are very poor, you can get free medical. I think the USA is a wonderful country for
low income people and illegal immigrants. This is one thing Japan can not do.

Really? Why not? Japan is as wealthy as the US and wealthier than
Canada, Australia and other countries that help refugees. I also have to
take back my statement about Americans of my generation not knowing
hunger because we have 100,000+ refugees who have come here from very
bad environments who are now Americans. Refugees that Japan refused to
admit in some cases.

Japan may be wealthy, but I can not afford a house as large as I have
right now. I don't think all of my family members can have their own
car. I don't want to get on a full train. I don't want to be touched
my body just because there is no space. So, what is wealth? The
nation's budget or each person's life style?

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
There is no perfect diet. White rice is still better than those
biscuits with gravy, huge muffins, pizzas, french fries, pastas, cakes,
pies, and on and on. Too much carbohydrates plus fat and sugar.

White rice is a fairly highly processed carbohydrate with little
nutritional value. It's as bad a white bread and even more tasteless.
But that's my background speaking, I prefer the super heavy whole wheat
and rye breads to rice. While there's no perfect diet, it's far better
to eat whole grains rather than highly processed grains.

I love rice. Rice alone is boring of course; therefore, I add some
tasty secondary diet. Sashimi, natto, nori, tsukemono, tsukudani,
shiojake, miso soup and so on definitely make rice tasty. Well, I think
I am wasting time telling you this because you don't like rice anyway.
If you don't appreciate rice, what were you doing in Japan? If you
don't like rice, you didn't discover Japan very much.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
You think experience and ability are the first priority,

I do.

Post by Cindy
but it's a naive belief.

Not in America thank god! I can usually find a decent job when I need to.

Do you what favoritism is?

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Some governmental ministries or corporations want to hire
only Todai graduates or specific university graduates. Sometimes,
overly ambitious and smart person like you are not wanted. They are
looking for a specific person for specific needs plus, by a very special
person's recommendation.

That happens in the US as well, but not to any degree like Japan. Also
how do you know I'm overly ambitious and smart? I've turned down upper
management positions and I'm more than happy to go home in a timely
fashion and read, paint or build something. Also if I was really smart I
would have went into law or management.

And what would you have accomplished? More income?

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger.

My company does it all the time. So do most companies when times are
good and the jobs are plentiful, it's more a help during bad times.

No, especially after 9/11, it is not easy like you believe. Good luck.
Better clean your follicles.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
They need someone who can tell about you when they look at your resume.

That's what references are for.

Post by Cindy
I kinda understand and imagine that since Asians are not very fast in
speaking (English), instead, they just go ahead and do the work. In
order to get their job done, they can be very pushy instead of having a
sweet conversation.

At most of the places I've worked, to have sweet conversation I would
have to speak either Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Cambodian,
Spanish, Russian, French and assorted other languages. There was one
company where I was the only native English speaker. I suspect also your
friend has no real work experience.

Who's my friend? My impression is that Americans talk too much at work.
In Japan, you don't look good if you talk unnecessary at work. I
wish I could talk and work at the same time like they do.

Post by James Eckman
People pretty much carry on like
other people at least in the places I've worked, it really doesn't
matter where they are from.

That's not nice. It matters where they are from.

Post by James Eckman
It is cool being able to celebrate more than
just American holidays! Though once again, I'm in the Silicon Valley,
many companies have classes to help understand other cultures, including
American, so my experiences may not be typical.

You feel very international? Good for you. You are so multicultural
and understand every culture so much. But the more you know other
cultures, the more you stick to American, don't you?

Post by James Eckman
Actually the one somewhat strange feeling I had working in Japan is, wow
like there's only Japanese working here! Along with the normal
embarassment of figuring out the office/bathroom shoe dance.

Consequently, you didn't like Japan and are glad to come back the USA.
Because Japan was such a weird country, you want someone to share your
strange experiences with.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
I live in Texas. One border line is righ there bringing a lot of
immigrants.

Doesn't answer the question if you personally know any illegal aliens
and what they actually do or you believe what you see on TV or redneck
propaganda rags. I've worked with them and had them as neighbors and
friends.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
I don't really read or see much about them other than the ones in the
sex trade. Who are treated badly and who's employers are rarely fined.

So? Don't you start "In the US, ..."

In the US they are sometimes treated badly and employers are rarely
fined. If a country needs guest workers or more permanent immigrants,
they should make legal provisions for them and let them come. Otherwise
they should punish both parties. Applies to the US and Japan.

It will be interesting to see how Japan handles its old age crisis, they
will be the first of the developed countries to start losing population
followed by parts of Europe. Without a fair number of young healthy
workers, the old folks may be in trouble!

The US has further to go before it hits this issue because we had
massive immigration during the 90's. Hmm, one of our greatest periods of
prosperity as well. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Post by Cindy
Japan may be wealthy, but I can not afford a house as large as I have
right now.

Housing is cheaper in Texas than most of Japan, other parts of the
States are more expensive, the Bay Area is about as costly, maybe more
so than Tokyo. A doctor friend moved back because they could afford a
house there and not here.

Post by Cindy
I don't think all of my family members can have their own
car. I don't want to get on a full train. I don't want to be touched
my body just because there is no space. So, what is wealth? The
nation's budget or each person's life style?

If you think a large house and a private car is wealth, then you have
moved to the perfect location. I don't mind taking trains since I'm a
bit of a train nut and I use Bart and our local light rail. Not having
to drive is more enjoyable to me. I admit that Tokyo rush hour is a bit
intense though, even for me.

When Long Beach put in their light rail, I had flashbacks to Tokyo since
they bought the cars from a Japanese firm and the tones were unchanged.
One error message was still in Japanese as well during the very early
runs I heard.

Most inner city areas in the US are not well designed for living, and
Japan, while it's a bit better in terms of urban design is still not as
good as some of the European cities like Amsterdam. Having a car in
Amsterdam is poverty because you pay and suffer. Good urban areas in my
mind usually have lots of mixed use, stores below and housing above,
small roadways that encourage walking and biking instead of massive
numbers of cars, easy access to shopping, public facilities and
greenery. Few if any ultra high rises and other abominations.

Parts of Kyoto are like this, Tokyo lacks some of this because it was
overdeveloped. Updated versions of the old Osaka or Kyoto homes that
were narrow and deep I think it be great along with small parks and
green areas. I'm not a fan of big houses, usually means more cleaning
and little else to me. The current design of most American homes is
usally pretty crappy as well, lots of wasted space and poor lot placement.

Post by Cindy
I love rice.

A common Japanese trait.

Post by Cindy
Rice alone is boring of course; therefore, I add some
tasty secondary diet. Sashimi, natto, nori, tsukemono, tsukudani,
shiojake, miso soup and so on definitely make rice tasty. Well, I think
I am wasting time telling you this because you don't like rice anyway.
If you don't appreciate rice, what were you doing in Japan?

First answer is working, second answer is I will eat rice but I'm not
fond of it. Is rice the only reason to visit Japan? That's a pretty
silly one unless you are a real hard core rice lover. I eat sashimi,
nori, tsukemono, tsukudani, shiojake and miso soup. No natto though,
which is fair, 50% of Japanese won't eat it either! I found the Japanese
people and what remains of historic Japan more than enough reason to go.

Post by Cindy
If you don't like rice, you didn't discover Japan very much.

I'm just curious how much rice you eat? Some of the visiting students
here eat 2-3 pots of rice a day. I realize it's an important part of
Japanese culture, but I didn't know I was required to eat that much so I
could travel and work in Japan.

Post by Cindy
Do you what favoritism is?

I think you meant something by the above. I have never been hired
because of connections. I have been hired once without an interview
because I had worked with some of the people before and they knew I
could do the job. I have known sons and daughters of wealthy parents who
were hired this way. Most of them didn't seem to be happy and two
committed suicide. Most American corporations try to avoid this nowadays
because business is too competitive to be run by junior anymore.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Some governmental ministries or corporations want to hire
only Todai graduates or specific university graduates.

Thinking more on that subject, this is really hiring on ability. Anybody
who passes the exams can go to Todai and it doesn't cost that much to
go. Since they usually hire graduates straight out of school, there's no
other way to measure them other than grades and their university.

That many of the top schools in Japan are public and available to anyone
who can past the tests I think is one of the very cool things about Japan.

Post by Cindy
And what would you have accomplished? More income?

More interesting and varied work without a lot of hard physical labor. I
might have made more as a housing contractor.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger.

My company does it all the time. So do most companies when times are
good and the jobs are plentiful, it's more a help during bad times.

No, especially after 9/11, it is not easy like you believe. Good luck.

It's not belief, it's personal knowledge, I hire people, my friends hire
people and often these people are strangers. You obviously have little
job experience in the US.

Post by Cindy
Who's my friend? My impression is that Americans talk too much at work.
In Japan, you don't look good if you talk unnecessary at work. I
wish I could talk and work at the same time like they do.

I'm an engineer, we usually are a bit quieter than other groups. In
Japan you are usually forced to talk after work since you are always
getting dragged off with the coworkers and the boss to go eating and
drinking. That was 10+ years ago though, so things might be changing.

Post by Cindy
That's not nice. It matters where they are from.

I'm not sure what you mean. People have different cultural traits but
underlying all of them is their basic humanity.

Post by Cindy
You feel very international? Good for you. You are so multicultural
and understand every culture so much. But the more you know other
cultures, the more you stick to American, don't you?

I wouldn't mind living in Japan, but being a permanent outsider might
get old after a while. Maybe some of the group members that have been
there for a while can tell us more. Parts of Europe would be nice if
they didn't have such miserable weather. Canada has some great cities
but their climate really sucks with the possible exception of Vancouver.
I haven't visited Australia or New Zealand so I'm indecisive on them.

All bets are off though if I ever wind up married, a high school friend
lives in Taiwan now because he married a Taiwanese girl.

On the other hand, given a choice between hell and Texas, I think I'd
move to hell and rent the house in Texas.

Post by Cindy
Consequently, you didn't like Japan and are glad to come back the USA.
Because Japan was such a weird country, you want someone to share your
strange experiences with.

Like you can't have weird experiences in the US? Berkeley, Burning Man,
Amish and almost every other variety of weird or unusual exists here.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
White rice is a fairly highly processed carbohydrate with little
nutritional value. It's as bad a white bread and even more tasteless.
But that's my background speaking, I prefer the super heavy whole wheat
and rye breads to rice. While there's no perfect diet, it's far better
to eat whole grains rather than highly processed grains.

I love rice. Rice alone is boring of course; therefore, I add some
tasty secondary diet. Sashimi, natto, nori, tsukemono, tsukudani,
shiojake, miso soup and so on definitely make rice tasty. Well, I think
I am wasting time telling you this because you don't like rice anyway.
If you don't appreciate rice, what were you doing in Japan? If you
don't like rice, you didn't discover Japan very much.

Makes no sense; there's more to Japan (or Japanese food) than white
rice.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger.

My company does it all the time. So do most companies when times are
good and the jobs are plentiful, it's more a help during bad times.

No, especially after 9/11, it is not easy like you believe. Good luck.

Yes, it's still done the same way here.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
At most of the places I've worked, to have sweet conversation I would
have to speak either Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Cambodian,
Spanish, Russian, French and assorted other languages. There was one
company where I was the only native English speaker. I suspect also your
friend has no real work experience.

Who's my friend? My impression is that Americans talk too much at work.
In Japan, you don't look good if you talk unnecessary at work. I

Japanese offices I worked in, the people talked incessantly.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
People pretty much carry on like
other people at least in the places I've worked, it really doesn't
matter where they are from.

That's not nice. It matters where they are from.

No, it matters if they can do the job.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Actually the one somewhat strange feeling I had working in Japan is, wow
like there's only Japanese working here! Along with the normal
embarassment of figuring out the office/bathroom shoe dance.

Consequently, you didn't like Japan and are glad to come back the USA.
Because Japan was such a weird country, you want someone to share your
strange experiences with.

Can you get more surreal, or is this your limit?

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Japanese offices I worked in, the people talked incessantly.

The sales offices I went to were noisy, the engineering areas less so.
But much of it seemed work related so it's hard to tell if there was
really that much chattering going on. Plus when there's not a guest
around, I suspect things are a bit different.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
No, it matters if they can do the job.

My current company especially emphasizes that, we had several courses on
how to ask detailed questions during interviews, how to avoid personal
biases and how to determine what the job really needed in terms of
skills. I've only know a handful of Americans who were hire for
technical work in Japan, and they each seemed to have a different
experience, I can't make any generalizations.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by James Eckman
Actually the one somewhat strange feeling I had working in Japan is, wow
like there's only Japanese working here! Along with the normal
embarassment of figuring out the office/bathroom shoe dance.

Can you get more surreal, or is this your limit?

The dancing Elvises in Ueno Park reminded me of the DooDah parade in
Pasadena.

I was heavily briefed by the salesman there and my friends were always
talking about their trips home to visit family. At least they didn't
take me bowling, though Royal Host is a good stand in for Dennys.

Commercial engineering in California was paid about a third less than
aerospace, which pretty much required that you be a citizen. Net effect
was most commercial engineering outfits were always a very mixed
assortment. I felt a bit of that in Boulder and Houston as well when I
went there the first time. No minorities working here! A bit strange for
companies purporting to be multi-national. Tokyo reminded me too much of
every other big, newly developed western cities with the exception of
little pockets here and there. Osaka, Kobe and Kyoto seemed less
aggressively modern.

I was secretly hoping that a bit more of traditional Japan would be left
lying about, but I knew that that was nonsense. We do the same thing
here, I can't even recognize parts of LA that I grew up in since they
have redeveloped it so heavily. In the case of my mom's home town, they
plowed the entire thing under and made it a giant farm.

Truly surreal was Romania immediately after their revolution where I was
greeted with rap, the music of freedom and treated like visiting royalty
because America had saved them from the Russians. I left on a Russian
built DC-3 from WW2. All in all a total time warp experience.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Japanese offices I worked in, the people talked incessantly.

The sales offices I went to were noisy, the engineering areas less so.
But much of it seemed work related so it's hard to tell if there was
really that much chattering going on. Plus when there's not a guest
around, I suspect things are a bit different.

People at the offices I worked at would talk about work, sometimes
sports, weather, etc.

Post by James Eckman
skills. I've only know a handful of Americans who were hire for
technical work in Japan, and they each seemed to have a different
experience, I can't make any generalizations.

I was a software engineer there. Kinda fun, actually.

Post by James Eckman
companies purporting to be multi-national. Tokyo reminded me too much of
every other big, newly developed western cities with the exception of
little pockets here and there. Osaka, Kobe and Kyoto seemed less
aggressively modern.

Tokyo's still got a lot of old Tokyo in it, especially at night. Lottsa
small drinking/eating places embedded in ultra-modern
buildings/neighborhoods, etc. But it's the more rural areas that seem
most changed, to me. On Shikoku, the smaller towns have a semi-modern
diner or two, a generic-Mart, etc. comprising about have the business
sections.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
That's true, I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the
60's or after in Japan, I doubt you have either.

But my parents know the hardest time after the war. Their spirits are
in me.

Sorry, you don't get to claim to have suffered by proxy. Unless you
want to admit guilt by proxy as well.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
It's starting to be a problem in Japan as well. It's very tough for
people to resist overeating when your instincts cry out, eat more! Fat
is good. Also in some subcultures, skinny is considered unattractive.

It is good also that obese people support medical industry, insurance
business, and food manufacture, of course.

Hunh?

Post by Cindy
However, they got to realize
that when something happens to them such as falling, not many people can
help them up.

You remind me of the Japanese police official who said you had to be
careful of Sri Lankans, because in the dark you could bump into them.

Post by Cindy
they may break my limbs or ribs or even back bones if they fall over me.
Just think 350 pounds meat falling from the sky. It's a same impact
as a pick up truck run over you.

You never took physics, did you?

Post by Cindy
There is no perfect diet. White rice is still better than those
biscuits with gravy, huge muffins, pizzas, french fries, pastas, cakes,
pies, and on and on. Too much carbohydrates plus fat and sugar.

Sorry, white rice is nutritional one of the worst foods, certainly the
worst of the cereals. You'd be much better off with the foods you
said you preferred than with a white rice diet.

Post by Cindy
In the US also, nobody wants to hire a total stranger. They need

They do it all the time. They do it in Japan as well.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
So, what happened to you? Were you turned down?

No, because I was working for a reputable company and was living in
hotels where foreigners stayed. In Japan several of my friends had
problems with renting even though they had the money and had their
papers.

Yeah, I had some problems. Nothing I couldn't overcome, but you
eventually find a place.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
That's the point! They say "Americans don't know starvation".

For my generation that's mostly true with the exceptions of blacks,
American Indians and Hispanics. For the people who lived during the

Actually, I don't know of any of them who starve, either. Nor any
current Japanese.

Post by James Eckman
That's true, I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the
60's or after in Japan, I doubt you have either.

Make that the 50s.

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by James Eckman
For my generation that's mostly true with the exceptions of blacks,
American Indians and Hispanics. For the people who lived during the

Actually, I don't know of any of them who starve, either. Nor any
current Japanese.

Sadly some of the slum kids in LA don't get enough to eat and not the
right types of foods. My teacher friends have to be on the lookout for
it. Bastards keep cutting back on the food programs, most of the other
problems were really more 50's and early 60's issues. The great society
did sort of work!

I've seen Japanese TV dramas (I know the worst source!) that show a few
Japanese that are refused welfare starving. I suspect that's extremely
rare if it even happens at all. I think if it ever happened for real,
I'd see it on BS news (a great name).

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by James Eckman
That's true, I don't know how old you are but if you were born in the
60's or after in Japan, I doubt you have either.

Make that the 50s.

Wasn't sure when food production was back to normal, you probably can
just ask someone.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
My Japanese isn't the greatest, but it's enough to figure out that. I
would probably say something smart alecky like 'You must be from the
country' ;)

No, that's not a good idea. Don't make a fool out of yourself.

You have this backwards; if someone is rude to you, THEY'VE made a
fool out of themselves.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
There are racists everywhere. It's just socially unacceptable in most of
urban California. In Los Angeles in the Japanese community over 50% of
the marriages are mixed and frankly it's nothing special anymore.

It's nothing special anymore?

If over 50% of marriages in the Japanese community are mixed, then no,
it's not.

Post by Cindy
You never understand what I've been through.

Nor do you understand what others have been through.

Post by Cindy
Yeah, I've found that many educated people are selfish and arrogant. I

Amazingly, I've found that to be true of uneducated people.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Yes I understand that. I've read about it and I have friends who had to
pick through trash for food.

I believe there was not even trash after the war.

The people I know disagree with you.

Post by Cindy
I've heard that many young Japanese are feeling: "So why do you go to
college? You will get laid off anyway?"

Don't to college, and get laid off anyway...

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Possibly true in the Japanese case, no Japanese has ever talked about
meeting GIs to me other than teasing comments to their spouse when I was
MUCH younger.

They don't tell you straight, but they put down on your girlfriend with
sarcasm.

Oddly, this didn't happen when I was in Japan. Perhaps I associated with
better people than you are used to.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
the occupation, so I suspect that this is not very common any more. Also
would you automatically assume that a Japanese woman dating a foreigner
was a prostitute?

Some people do that, OK?

Some people believe in creationism. I don't really care what an ignorant
minority of people think.

And again, nobody assumed my wife/then-girlfriend was a hooker.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
I find that highly offensive. There are Japanese,
highly educated, moral, career women who date foreigners.

You mean respectable women? Don't you generalize that prostitutes are
uneducated.

In general, they are less educated.

Post by Cindy
Certainly many of them didn't have proper education like you think,
but it is all because of the war.

Also, Japan at the time put considerably less emphasis on education for
women.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy
Well, I did the opposite then. I remember one middle school teacher
told the class about his experience in the war. He told us about how
tough his superior had been and so on but nothing about his battle or
how many he had killed. I truly enjoyed his stories. However, later
on, I learned about all terrible events during the invasion in Asia.
Then, I started thinking if Mr. Miyasaka had killed any people in the
war. He went to the war so that he must've killed someone. Maybe he

Most likely.

Post by Cindy
raped women before he killed them. It's unhealthy to have a doubt like

Possible, depending on where he was stationed.

Post by Cindy
this towards your school teacher, and nobody will talk about the war
anymore.

They still talk about it; articles sometimes still appear in Asahi, eg.

Post by Cindy
express "Sensou Hantai". But, how do you think about those families
that had had to give up their own son feel like? They gave up their son
to be called a murderer? How do you balance this?

Sorry, life doesn't balance to make people feel better. If the son was a
soldier, and followed the rules of the war, fine. If he committed
atrocities, then "balance" is to have him reviled, having first been
punished.

Mike

[Cindy]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Sorry, life doesn't balance to make people feel better. If the son was a
soldier, and followed the rules of the war, fine. If he committed
atrocities, then "balance" is to have him reviled, having first been
punished.

Japan was not like the USA especially during WW2. Everybody had to
participate and endure together. In the US, you send solders to battle
fields and play tennis, go to work, or go to school. Not everybody
participates in the war in the USA. Coming back to Japan, all families
had to give up boys for the war. If you force them to revile, all
families will have a war criminal or two. I think they may feel so
ashamed and commit suicide.

This is why I am telling you to pay closer attention to each individual.
You just can not push what you do normally in the USA to Japan.

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Sorry, life doesn't balance to make people feel better. If the son was a
soldier, and followed the rules of the war, fine. If he committed
atrocities, then "balance" is to have him reviled, having first been
punished.

Japan was not like the USA especially during WW2. Everybody had to
participate and endure together.

Sorry? Are you on drugs, or merely deranged?

In fact, the US went to a war-time economy almost IMMEDIATELY. Japan
never did, and Germany did not until late 1943.

Post by Cindy
In the US, you send solders to battle
fields and play tennis, go to work, or go to school.

Yeah, images of US tennis players charging up Suribachi still brings
tears to these old eyes...

Post by Cindy
Not everybody participates in the war in the USA.

Sorry, repeating a canard does not make it true.

Post by Cindy
Coming back to Japan, all families had to give up boys for the war.

Well, they did have college deferments, right? I know two guys who
avoided serving in the Japanese armed forces that way.

BTW, have you ever heard of the draft? No?

Post by Cindy
If you force them to revile, all families will have a war criminal or two.

So, if they were war criminals, we should just forget it, right?

Post by Cindy
I think they may feel so ashamed and commit suicide.

For killing babies and raping little girls? Naw....

Post by Cindy
This is why I am telling you to pay closer attention to each individual.

I'm telling you to get a clue; you have no idea what the US situation
was.

Post by Cindy
You just can not push what you do normally in the USA to Japan.

You are the only one who said anything about the US situation and you
got that wrong.

Mike

[Cindy]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I'm telling you to get a clue; you have no idea what the US situation
was.

I am not talking about the US. I am talking about Japan. Otherwise my
post won't be approved by the moderator. Please stay on the topic about
"Japan".

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by Cindy
You just can not push what you do normally in the USA to Japan.

You are the only one who said anything about the US situation and you
got that wrong.

No, today, quite many Americans are aware of ethnocentrism. You might
have been left behind. Nobody likes your American arrogance thinking
that your country is better than any other else.

That's enough. Go back to the topic again, which is "Japan".

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
I'm telling you to get a clue; you have no idea what the US situation
was.

I am not talking about the US.

You mentioned the US 4 times.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Post by Cindy
I am talking about Japan. Otherwise my

Then why so much about how the US had (eg) tennis players during the
war, whereas the Japanese were all subject to the draft?

Post by Cindy
post won't be approved by the moderator.

Really? Why don't we let the moderators worry about that?

Post by Cindy
Please stay on the topic about "Japan".

That's what we're trying to get you to do.

Post by Cindy

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net

Post by Cindy
You just can not push what you do normally in the USA to Japan.

You are the only one who said anything about the US situation and you
got that wrong.

No,

Yes.

Post by Cindy
today, quite many Americans are aware of ethnocentrism. You might
have been left behind.

Sorry, please re-state what you think the US situation was during WWII.

Post by Cindy
Nobody likes your American arrogance thinking

I'm certain we're all tired of your general ignorance as well.

However, please tell me EXACTLY what my "American arrogance thinking"
has to do with asking you to back up your statement.

Post by Cindy
that your country is better than any other else.
That's enough. Go back to the topic again, which is "Japan".

So, again, why do you feel the US situation during the war was so
pleasant?

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
Japan was not like the USA especially during WW2. Everybody had to
participate and endure together. In the US, you send solders to battle
fields and play tennis, go to work, or go to school.

You have a very unrealistic view of both US military and civilian life
during WW2. American civilians did have it easy in comparison to most of
Europe and Japan, we had enough food and we weren't bombed, but there
was still serious rationing of most items, production of non-essentials
was prohibited in some cases. Also woman worked in record numbers,
leaving kids to wander the streets and get in trouble in some cases, day
care centers were pretty much non-existent at the time. Many colleges
were closed or greatly reduced in class size. As for playing tennis,
that's a bizarre comment, I'm sure the Japanese also carried out some
leisure pursuits during the war as well or did they put away all the New
Year's goodies for 7-8 years?

Post by Cindy
Not everybody participates in the war in the USA.

Not everyone participated in Japan or Germany either.

Post by Cindy
Coming back to Japan, all families had to give up boys for the war.

Did all families have boys? No. The draft was pretty universal during
the war in the US, though at least one relative had to wait until the
third call because he was too tall.

Post by Cindy
If you force them to revile, all families will have a war criminal or two.

If you participated in rape and murder you are a war criminal. I doubt
most of the Japanese military is guilty of this.

Post by Cindy
I think they may feel so ashamed and commit suicide.

If they deliberately murdered or raped innocent civilians then I have no
sympathy for them.

Post by Cindy
This is why I am telling you to pay closer attention to each individual.
You just can not push what you do normally in the USA to Japan.

Why should I pay attention to just Japanese individuals? If you want to
go back to isolation like Tokugawa times that's fine, but your attitude
affects other nationalities in a very negative fashion. My older Chinese
and Vietnamese friends would be horrified by your attitude towards the war.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman
As for playing tennis,
that's a bizarre comment, I'm sure the Japanese also carried out some
leisure pursuits during the war as well or did they put away all the New
Year's goodies for 7-8 years?

Sorry, I replace playing tennis with playing golf. Why doesn't Tiger
Woods have to go to war?

The point I am trying to get across is that all Japanese had to suffer.
They were not allowed to even wish the war is over.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Not everybody participates in the war in the USA.

Not everyone participated in Japan or Germany either.

School kids were to write letters to solders in the battle field. So I
was told by a war bride who lives in Texas for a long time. I thought
how absurd, but oh well.

Post by James Eckman
Why should I pay attention to just Japanese individuals? If you want to
go back to isolation like Tokugawa times that's fine, but your attitude
affects other nationalities in a very negative fashion. My older Chinese
and Vietnamese friends would be horrified by your attitude towards the war.

Don't take it to extreme. I had a lot of discussions with other
Japanese. I usually probe how they think about Nanking massacre. They
usually don't want to talk about it. They don't seem to have their own
opinions. Or, maybe they can not form an opinion. They don't know what
to say against my accusation. One guy just said "Datte boku no
ojii-chan ..." Another said to me "If you criticize too much, sensou ni
itta hito ga kawaisou." Also, she told me that two of her relatives
were selected as tokkou taiin. She seems to be proud of it, which means
that she is proud of her relatives' intelligence. I think everybody
interprets the war differently. You must pay close attention to this
difference, otherwise you don't go nowhere in discussions.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
Sorry, I replace playing tennis with playing golf.

I don't know if any member of my family has ever played golf, I think my
little bit of tennis is the only bit in the family, try fishing, bowling
or baseball.

There are books in English about the home front in Japan, maybe you
should read the Japanese versions. People still partied, played cards
and celebrated the festivals. As a morbid aside, Tokyo only had 1 gallon
per house on the average for fighting fires. This is not good in a city
of paper and wood.

Post by Cindy
Why doesn't Tiger Woods have to go to war?

Because the American draft ended on my 18th birthday which was before
Tiger was born. We currently have an all volunteer army.

Post by Cindy
The point I am trying to get across is that all Japanese had to suffer.
They were not allowed to even wish the war is over.

Really, you mean the Kempetai could read minds! How did they lose? Some
Japanese didn't suffer, they lived where there was no bombing, they made
good money from the war and ate black market food. As described in books
written by Japanese on the subject.

Frankly the Japanese didn't suffer as nearly as much as the Poles or the
Chinese under Japanese occupation. If the invasion of Japan had actually
happened, I think that Japan would have wound up a third world country
that would have never been allowed to reindustrialize.

Post by Cindy
School kids were to write letters to solders in the battle field.

That happened and still happens here, but it is voluntary for the most
part. Americans seem to volunteer for things more readily than Japanese,
which might show a lack of intelligence on our part. A simple look at
the Habitat for Humanities penetration in Korea shows it is vastly
larger than Japan. There's not that much difference in the standard of
living I would think.

Post by Cindy
So I was told by a war bride who lives in Texas for a long time. I thought
how absurd, but oh well.

Why is that absurd? An older friend of mine was an orphan when he joined
the Marines, he received a letter from a stranger for Christmas. He says
it was one of the happiest days of his life.

Post by Cindy
Don't take it to extreme. I had a lot of discussions with other
Japanese. I usually probe how they think about Nanking massacre. They
usually don't want to talk about it. They don't seem to have their own
opinions. Or, maybe they can not form an opinion.

It's over 60 years ago, that it can't be discussed still is a bit shameful.

Post by Cindy
Also, she told me that two of her relatives were selected as tokkou taiin. She seems to be proud of it, which means
that she is proud of her relatives' intelligence.

I know what the words mean, but I have no idea what that implies.

I think everybody

Post by Cindy
interprets the war differently. You must pay close attention to this
difference, otherwise you don't go nowhere in discussions.

Some differences are unacceptable to me, denying the Holocaust ever
happened or the Rape of Nanking. Even the Japan High court ruled that it
was unacceptable. If you think that Americans had lots of fun and no
troubles during WW2, you need to study more. Japan didn't even suffer
the worst compared to other countries.

Jim Eckman

[Cindy]

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
The point I am trying to get across is that all Japanese had to suffer.
They were not allowed to even wish the war is over.

Really, you mean the Kempetai could read minds! How did they lose? Some
Japanese didn't suffer, they lived where there was no bombing, they made
good money from the war and ate black market food. As described in books
written by Japanese on the subject.

I want to hear your real experiences of discussions with veterans.

Post by James Eckman
Frankly the Japanese didn't suffer as nearly as much as the Poles or the
Chinese under Japanese occupation. If the invasion of Japan had actually
happened, I think that Japan would have wound up a third world country
that would have never been allowed to reindustrialize.

I am glad that you were not the leader that time.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
So I was told by a war bride who lives in Texas for a long time. I thought
how absurd, but oh well.

Why is that absurd?

You write a letter beginning "Dear Mr. Solder in, say, Iwojima,"; then,
"Thank you for your hard work ...". Do you think they delivered
hundreds of such letters to them? I have never heard any solder got
such letters and became encouraged. It was just a strategy of the
country or school to make kids aware of the war.

Post by James Eckman
An older friend of mine was an orphan when he joined
the Marines, he received a letter from a stranger for Christmas. He says
it was one of the happiest days of his life.

Good for him.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Don't take it to extreme. I had a lot of discussions with other
Japanese. I usually probe how they think about Nanking massacre. They
usually don't want to talk about it. They don't seem to have their own
opinions. Or, maybe they can not form an opinion.

It's over 60 years ago, that it can't be discussed still is a bit shameful.

I agree with you, but I understand how they feel about the issue too. I
feel sorry for them when they get denounced and challenged by people
like you.

Post by James Eckman

Post by Cindy
Also, she told me that two of her relatives were selected as tokkou taiin. She seems to be proud of it, which means
that she is proud of her relatives' intelligence.

I know what the words mean, but I have no idea what that implies.

It is said that you had to be very smart to be selected for the tokkou.

Post by James Eckman
I think everybody

Post by Cindy
interprets the war differently. You must pay close attention to this
difference, otherwise you don't go nowhere in discussions.

Some differences are unacceptable to me, denying the Holocaust ever

Oh, yeah, I can't wait until the day that all the Japanese are able to
say frankly "Oh, yeah, we killed lots of Chinese, so what?" like
Americans say "Oh, yeah, we almost wipe out the Indians, so what?".

Post by James Eckman
happened or the Rape of Nanking. Even the Japan High court ruled that it
was unacceptable. If you think that Americans had lots of fun and no
troubles during WW2, you need to study more. Japan didn't even suffer
the worst compared to other countries.

You'd better check how they broadcast at the History Channel. It's very
biased.

[James Eckman]

Post by Cindy
I want to hear your real experiences of discussions with veterans.

US or Japanese? I've already told you stories from US veterans that were
part of the occupation. The only Japanese veteran I know was a Vietnam
veteran. Want to here about my friend's father who was the only officer
in his unit that survived Tarawa? Probably not on topic.

Post by Cindy
I am glad that you were not the leader that time.

So am I, I've never really desired power over others.

Post by Cindy
You write a letter beginning "Dear Mr. Solder in, say, Iwojima,"; then,
"Thank you for your hard work ...". Do you think they delivered
hundreds of such letters to them?

If they were mailed, they were delivered if at all possible. And I know
a few recepents of such letters. They were usually prayers for their
continued survival and the like.

Post by Cindy
I have never heard any solder got such letters and became encouraged. It was just a strategy of the
country or school to make kids aware of the war.

How many American WWII veterans do you know?

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
An older friend of mine was an orphan when he joined
the Marines, he received a letter from a stranger for Christmas. He says
it was one of the happiest days of his life.

Good for him.

It was good for him, it's said that Americans are naive, perhaps
believing that strangers care about you falls into that catagory. I
would rather be naive under those circumstances.

Post by Cindy
I agree with you, but I understand how they feel about the issue too. I
feel sorry for them when they get denounced and challenged by people
like you.

If they don't want to teach their children about the ugly bits of
history that happened over 60 years ago, I sort of understand it. If
they want to deny it ever happened, expect to be denounced and challenged.

Post by Cindy
Oh, yeah, I can't wait until the day that all the Japanese are able to
say frankly "Oh, yeah, we killed lots of Chinese, so what?" like
Americans say "Oh, yeah, we almost wipe out the Indians, so what?".

Do you live in the American South? Just curious...

Post by Cindy
You'd better check how they broadcast at the History Channel. It's very
biased.

I don't watch television for history, I read books instead. However
since they run American propaganda from WW2, yes it was very biased.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy
I want to hear your real experiences of discussions with veterans.

He didn't specifically mention veterans.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Frankly the Japanese didn't suffer as nearly as much as the Poles or the
Chinese under Japanese occupation. If the invasion of Japan had actually
happened, I think that Japan would have wound up a third world country
that would have never been allowed to reindustrialize.

I am glad that you were not the leader that time.

That makes no sense. He didn't say he'd've destroyed Japan, he said it
would have been muxh worse off had it been invaded. Undoubtedly true;
invaded areas are generally much worse off. Look at Okinawa.

Post by Cindy
You write a letter beginning "Dear Mr. Solder in, say, Iwojima,"; then,
"Thank you for your hard work ...". Do you think they delivered
hundreds of such letters to them? I have never heard any solder got
such letters and became encouraged.

Then you don't read much, which may be why you make so many absurd
claims. I've mentioned the Asahi Shimbun; they put together a collection
of letters to the paper about the war, and in one of the collections are
a couple letters from veterans who received letters from schoolchildren.
They claim it made them feel a bit less lonely.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
It's over 60 years ago, that it can't be discussed still is a bit shameful.

I agree with you, but I understand how they feel about the issue too. I
feel sorry for them when they get denounced and challenged by people
like you.

So, we shouldn't challenge those poor ol' Nazis, those sad Stalinists,
etc?

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Some differences are unacceptable to me, denying the Holocaust ever

Oh, yeah, I can't wait until the day that all the Japanese are able to
say frankly "Oh, yeah, we killed lots of Chinese, so what?" like
Americans say "Oh, yeah, we almost wipe out the Indians, so what?".

Oddly, there are more people of Indian descent now in the US than
ever.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
happened or the Rape of Nanking. Even the Japan High court ruled that it
was unacceptable. If you think that Americans had lots of fun and no
troubles during WW2, you need to study more. Japan didn't even suffer
the worst compared to other countries.

You'd better check how they broadcast at the History Channel. It's very
biased.

Sorry, but he's correct. You are simply ignorant.

Japan lost roughly 1.5M people in the war, which started in China in
1936.

Poland lost over 7M. The USSR, perhaps 20M. China, another 20M or
so. The Philippines, about 2M. Germany lost close to 7M.

Japan assuredly did not suffer nearly as much as some other countries,
as he said, and I doubt anyone suffered as much as Poland.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy
Sorry, I replace playing tennis with playing golf. Why doesn't Tiger
Woods have to go to war?

Because there's no draft?

Post by Cindy
The point I am trying to get across is that all Japanese had to suffer.

The point you missed is that the US had a more stringent draft than
did Japan. Japanese university students were given deferments, and
many high-ranking officials got their sons out of the draft.

In the US, even sons of US congressmen were drafted. And as mentioned,
the US went on immediate war-time footing for the economy. Japan never
did.

Post by Cindy

Post by James Eckman
Not everyone participated in Japan or Germany either.

School kids were to write letters to solders in the battle field. So I

They do in the US as well.

Post by Cindy
Japanese. I usually probe how they think about Nanking massacre. They
usually don't want to talk about it. They don't seem to have their own
opinions.

Again, Japanese newspapers carry such accounts and discussions.

Post by Cindy
ojii-chan ..." Another said to me "If you criticize too much, sensou ni
itta hito ga kawaisou."

Uh, yeah, but if they were behaving in contradiction to the accepted
mores of war, so what?

Mike

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
And as mentioned,
the US went on immediate war-time footing for the economy. Japan never
did.

Except that to a large extent it had been on a war footing for years.
The war didn't really just start in December 1941.

In some countries, and my own is one of them, being at war in an official
sense has legal and constitutional ramifications, in that the
governments often have extra powers in time of war. I think the people
effectively running Japan had those powers already. They didn't need extra
powers over economic matters.

[James Eckman]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
And as mentioned,
the US went on immediate war-time footing for the economy. Japan never
did.

Except that to a large extent it had been on a war footing for years.
The war didn't really just start in December 1941.

True, I think the draft had already started and America had frozen
Japanese assets in American banks along with trade sanctions. I'd have
to recheck this in terms of time, I think it was only roughly the year
before.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
In some countries, and my own is one of them, being at war in an official
sense has legal and constitutional ramifications, in that the
governments often have extra powers in time of war.

True to a certain extent in the US, but much of the special poweres were
voted on by Congress.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
I think the people effectively running Japan had those powers already.

I think it depends, the very powerful industrial combines in Japan
dictated to the government more than the other way around. In the US,
Henry Ford said he wouldn't cooperate with the war production board. The
board's answer was simple, build what we tell you to build or we will
take your company away from you. Since we nationalized the railroads in
WW1, Henry took the threat seriously and henceforth cooperated.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
They didn't need extra powers over economic matters.

I'm not sure if the Japanese government would have gotten them either.
Germany, something I've done a bit more study on had a horrible time
getting the various companies to cooperate. Since many items were not
built to common specifications, servicing equipment was a nightmare. I
know the Japanese small arm manufacturers had multiple calibers and
other truly nasty designs that caused logistic problems in the field.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman
True, I think the draft had already started and America had frozen
Japanese assets in American banks along with trade sanctions. I'd have
to recheck this in terms of time, I think it was only roughly the year
before.

No, that would have been an act of war.

Post by James Eckman

Post by j***@hotmail.com
I think the people effectively running Japan had those powers already.

I think it depends, the very powerful industrial combines in Japan
dictated to the government more than the other way around. In the US,

No, but the zaibatsu tended go about their own affairs at times,
refusing to meet even IJA demands, particularly for transport.

Japan is rather unique in the sense that there was very little
cooperation, much less coodination, between the government, military,
and large businesses at the time. Indeed, there was almost no
coordination between the IJA and the IJN.

Post by James Eckman
I'm not sure if the Japanese government would have gotten them either.
Germany, something I've done a bit more study on had a horrible time
getting the various companies to cooperate. Since many items were not

I don't believe they ever got this straightened out until Speer came
along. One of the things that frustrated the Allies was that even with
the bombing increasing, German production actually went UP in the last
years of the war, until the factories were physically captured. This was
largely due to Speers efforts, which of course speaks to the relative
inefficiency of the economy prior to that.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
And as mentioned,
the US went on immediate war-time footing for the economy. Japan never
did.

Except that to a large extent it had been on a war footing for years.

The Germans were on a 'war footing'. However, until Speer, they never
went to a full wartime economy. Japan never did.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
The war didn't really just start in December 1941.

Nobody said it did.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
In some countries, and my own is one of them, being at war in an official
sense has legal and constitutional ramifications, in that the
governments often have extra powers in time of war. I think the people

Often true.

Post by j***@hotmail.com
effectively running Japan had those powers already. They didn't need extra

Very untrue in the case of Japan. The people "effectively running Japan"
prior to the war with the US had no control whatsoever over the
Japanese economy. The people having some measure of control over the
Japanese economy most often had very little control of the war.

Among others, Beasley's _Japanese Imperialism_ has a full account.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman
No, but I find the recent movies and TV series that show Japanese as the
victims and the Chinese and Americans as perpetrators without any
counterbalancing views a disturbing trend.

Well, there's "Satokibi-batake no Uta", a very, er, "unflattering"
movie in its depictions of IJA actions and cowardice on Okinawa...

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Well, there's "Satokibi-batake no Uta", a very, er, "unflattering"
movie in its depictions of IJA actions and cowardice on Okinawa...

True, I think I remember that one. If I remember correctly from the
point of view of the film the Okinawans were victims of both sides.
Probably not a totally unrealistic view point, mainland Japan could have
surrendered much earlier and spared Okinawa the pain of invasion and the
American attack was pretty nasty. Overall about 27,000 Americans and
110,000 Japanese lost their lives, the bloodiest campaign in the Pacific
for the US.

Now the Okinawans get stuck with US bases that they don't want any more.
Since they make up a big chunk of the island, I can sort of see why.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman
True, I think I remember that one. If I remember correctly from the
point of view of the film the Okinawans were victims of both sides.

Yeah, but the IJA was rather highlighted.

Post by James Eckman
Probably not a totally unrealistic view point, mainland Japan could have
surrendered much earlier and spared Okinawa the pain of invasion and the
American attack was pretty nasty. Overall about 27,000 Americans and
110,000 Japanese lost their lives, the bloodiest campaign in the Pacific
for the US.

Roughly half the civilian casualties were inflicted by the IJA,
according to some estimates, an astonishing number.

Post by James Eckman
Now the Okinawans get stuck with US bases that they don't want any more.

Actually, many of the land owners still want the bases, appparently.

Post by James Eckman
Since they make up a big chunk of the island, I can sort of see why.

It's not so much the size, as
1) the location. Prime tourist areas, and I believe that's now Okinawa's
biggest cash producer now

2) the fact that the bases come with roads and housing already, and the
roads especially are wide by Japanese standards

3) the Okinawans feel that they are carrying an unfairly large burden of
the stationed troops.

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Yeah, but the IJA was rather highlighted.

Yes that's true.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Roughly half the civilian casualties were inflicted by the IJA,
according to some estimates, an astonishing number.

That could be, I only took a quick glance at what the US thought it did
in terms of damage.

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Actually, many of the land owners still want the bases, appparently.

Is it just the popular press that doesn't like them then? I don't get a
very realistic view of what's happening there. I don't think Churasan
counts ;)

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It's not so much the size, as
3) the Okinawans feel that they are carrying an unfairly large burden of
the stationed troops.

I've heard #3 many times.

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Roughly half the civilian casualties were inflicted by the IJA,
according to some estimates, an astonishing number.

That could be, I only took a quick glance at what the US thought it did
in terms of damage.

The nature of the IJA killings was more "up close and personal", hence
the disdain many of that generation held for the Tokyo government.

Post by James Eckman

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Actually, many of the land owners still want the bases, appparently.

Is it just the popular press that doesn't like them then? I don't get a

No, many people, especially those not of the WWII generation don't want
them. And, of course, developers and those looking to expand Okinawa's
main source of cash would be opposed as well.

Post by James Eckman
very realistic view of what's happening there. I don't think Churasan
counts ;)

Well, it DID run twice.

Post by James Eckman

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
It's not so much the size, as
3) the Okinawans feel that they are carrying an unfairly large burden of
the stationed troops.

I've heard #3 many times.

Pride can result in a lot of problems, if not assuaged from
time-to-time, and the Okinawans would be no exception.

Mike

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by Cindy

Post by Prophet of the Way
When horrible injustice is ignored there are consequences to the greater
society. Is it good citizenship to fail to see this?

That'll make many Japanese grandfathers (senior citizens) war criminals
and lose their respect.

Too bad. If they were war criminals, they were war criminals.

Post by Cindy
Everybody starts disrespecting
senior citizens who have an experience of the war. Perhaps, just any

Are you saying that EVERY Japanese soldier was a war criminal?

Sheesh.

Mike

[Prophet of the Way]

Post by Prophet of the Way
Eclipsed by the clash of the media titans NHK and Asahi Shimbun, a defamation
case brought to Japanese court saw conclusion on January 20th. Nanking victim
Li Xiu Ying won a lawsuit against a history book author that called her stories
fabricated.
Nanjing Massacre Survivor Wins Lawsuit
China Internet Information Center
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2005/Jan/118585.htm
Supreme Court ruling.
Times Online
May 11, 2002
Survivor wins payout over Nanjing libel
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-292826,00.html
Tokyo District Court ruling. Note that this is news in England.

The plaintiff, Li Xiu Ying (Xuoying), appears in 'The Rape of Nanking' by Iris
Chang.

[James Eckman]

One of the current reasons given for the anti-Japanese riots in China
are this kind of whitewashed nonsense in Japanese history texts. It's
certainly causing problems between the two countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4450975.stm
Thousands join anti-Japan protest

I don't know why the BBC calls this a rally unless British soccer fans
are worse than I thought.

China rally prompts Japan protest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4429509.stm

Jim Eckman

[m***@netMAPSONscape.net]

Post by James Eckman
One of the current reasons given for the anti-Japanese riots in China
are this kind of whitewashed nonsense in Japanese history texts. It's
certainly causing problems between the two countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4450975.stm
Thousands join anti-Japan protest
I don't know why the BBC calls this a rally unless British soccer fans
are worse than I thought.

Maybe it's because the Chinese government is strongly suspected of
helping organize the initial protests.

Mike

[James Eckman]

Post by m***@netMAPSONscape.net
Maybe it's because the Chinese government is strongly suspected of
helping organize the initial protests.

That's a very strong possibility, usually groups that organize any form
of protest are treated pretty harshly, Fulang Gong comes to mind. I
wonder what concessions China is trying to wring out of Japan now?

Of course the Japanese text editors are stupid for giving any form of
pretext to start problems, unless of course it was intentional.

Hopefully nothing exciting will happen in that part of Asia, but with
the sabre rattling of China about Taiwan and those tiny islands that
China and Japan claim, we could be living in interesting times. Maybe
there's a reason to have American bases in Japan ;)

Jim Eckman

[k***@gmail.com]

Are the American bases on those contested islands? That would be
interesting indeed.

[James Eckman]

Post by k***@gmail.com
Are the American bases on those contested islands? That would be
interesting indeed.

Thankfully no. At least that I'm aware of. It's currently its just
another Japan and China friction point. Since oil is involved though the
current American administration may do some kind of slimy deal if it
will make money for their corporate buddies.

The Issho folks have the right idea though not enough people to carry it
out. Much of the problems come from misunderstandings, deliberate or
otherwise and anything that helps break down some of those
misconceptions is a blessing.

Jim Eckman